Bullying and Harassment in the Workplace

In this episode of Coffee ’n’ Law, host Amy Davies welcomes back employment lawyer Neena Gupta for an insightful discussion on bullying and harassment in the workplace. Together they explore what legally constitutes harassment versus what may be considered poor management or interpersonal conflict.

Other topics discussed include the role of workplace policies and prevention programs, and how organizations should respond to complaints involving senior leadership or small business owners.  

As always, the episode closes with a “Spill the Tea” segment featuring real-world reflections on reacting to urgent situations, and the importance of speaking up when something doesn’t feel right.

Whether you’re an HR professional, business owner, or organizational leader, this episode will help you navigate sensitive workplace issues and foster a respectful and compliant work environment.

Connect with Neena Gupta:

On LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/neena-gupta-0107aa4
 Email: neena.gupta@gowlingwlg.com
 Visit Gowling WLG's website: www.gowlingwlg.com

Connect with Amy Davies:

On LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/daviesamy
 Email: amy@first30ready.com
 Visit First30's website: www.first30ready.com

HR Law Canada

Stay up to date with employment law news by subscribing to HR Law Canada: www.hrlawcanada.com

This podcast is produced by Storyphora, www.storyphora.com, info@storyphora.com

#amydavies #neenagupta #coffeenlaw #employmentlaw #HRleaders #workplacelaw #harassment #leadership

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So you should be working with your lawyer on these policies that you have in your organization. This is something I think you're taking a huge risk doing this on your absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

So here's what I recommend. Um either your lawyer or quite frankly, getting a good HR consultant because part of your harassment and bullying prevention is also, bluntly speaking, culture change.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Workplace law is complex and constantly changing. It can be hard to keep up, and the risk of getting it wrong can be costly for businesses. The Coffee and Law Podcast is here to help HR professionals and employers stay informed. We'll cover what's changing and how to navigate real workplace situations and everyday people decisions. So grab your favorite warm drink and join us for engaging practical and educational conversations with top experts in workplace and employment law.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

This podcast provides high-level general information. The perspective shared by our guests are for educational purposes and do not constitute legal advice. If you have a specific question or concern, please consult a qualified lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Hi, it's your host, Amy Davies of First30, jumping in here to share some exciting news. First30's Onboarding Buddy platform has officially launched. Onboarding Buddy is an intelligent, AI-powered knowledge assistant that gives new hires instant answers using your company's own information. It's secure, Microsoft backed, and simple to launch. No IT lift or setup fees, and it integrates seamlessly with your HRS. So if you want a quick, easy, and effective way to improve your organization's new hire experience, I think this might be it. You can reach out to me anytime at Amy at first30ready.com. That's Amy at firstthenumber30ready.com, and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have and share a demo. Now, enjoy the show. Welcome back, everyone, to Coffee and Law. We have Nina Gupta of Gowling W L G here today. But before we get started, Nina, I have to remind everyone, we've this podcast is doing so well. We're already in the top 50% of business podcasts, which I'm so excited about. But if you can subscribe if you're not subscribed, if you can like, give us a five-star rating if you're listening, comment. We would be so happy to hear from you. And we really do appreciate the support. And we're glad it's having such a positive impact. I'm getting some notes. I don't need no, Nina, if you've had anyone reach out to you. But we've just, we're just so happy that we're able to help our network and engage with everyone in this way. So that's what I want to start off by saying. Um, so thank thank you everyone for listening and tuning in. And we're so glad it's being um so helpful to you. So today we're gonna be talking about bullying and harassment, which is a really interesting topic. And Nina, you this was before your time, but I used to talk a lot about toxic behavior, let's call it, in the workplace. And we're gonna talk today. It's not always uh doesn't always constitute as bullying and harassment. So we're gonna talk about a little bit about what actually constitutes as bullying and harassment and some specific examples, what the law says. But it is something that really does affect workplaces, and it's something that if we can get to it before it becomes a huge problem, it's better for everyone. So this is a very, very important topic. And I can tell you, Nina, I don't know about you, but anyone I speak to feels as though, and I would include myself in this, that they have been bullied and harassed in the workplace.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah, and that's a very, very important point. The legal standard is probably higher than our own personal standard. Because I think in our personal standard, we want to be treated with respect and kindness in the workplace. The law does not mandate that. It says the definition of harassment and bullying is really a course of vexatious conduct that someone should know or ought to, you know, somebody knows or ought to have known would be unwelcome. And there are some specific carve-outs for that. But it used to be when I started law that bullying and harassment was only really considered to be a flaw if it was based on one of the prohibited grounds in the Ontario Human Rights Code and any of the human rights codes. So sexual harassment, racial harassment, those were considered. But if you were what I called an equal opportunity bully in the workplace, there was no law that prohibited that. And I worked with a number of equal opportunity bullies when I was a young lawyer. And it was really considered to be a rite of passage. You have to put it up with them because he was a high biller, he brought in a lot of work, and it was just accepted. Starting in the 90s, the there was a lot of, and give Quebec actually a lot of credit for this, they discovered that the harm from just generic bullying, not necessarily because of sex or race or family status or any of the other protected grounds, was very harmful. And so they started putting on obligations on the employer to prevent it. But it still has to be a course of unwelcome conduct. And the line between someone's just a bad boss or a bad coworker and a bully and a harasser, it's sometimes a difficult one to figure out at law.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah. And what is the threshold? So if I'm in a meeting with my boss and they start telling me that I'm not doing a good job, they're not being very nice about it. Um, which of course has never happened to me, Nina, because I've always done such a good job with everything. But if you're in that situation and your boss is saying, you know, you're not doing a good job, they're not, they're not being nice. They're telling you you're gonna be put on a pip. Um, is that what is that?

SPEAKER_03 6:28

I don't think that that is that is definitely bad management. Uh, that's somebody that needs to be trained in how to communicate and motivate employees. I can't imagine, quite frankly, motivating somebody by saying, yeah, you're a terrible worker and your work is really bad, and we're gonna put you on a pip. Like that doesn't really help. It's not very constructive, but it's not bullying. And there's specific exceptions in all of the laws in Canada about um performance management. Now, you can't be derogatory and yell at people. I mean, there's still rules about that, but it it just a matter of fact, your work is terrible and you know it's not acceptable. You're not meeting standards, you're probably gonna go on a pip if you don't improve. I don't know how long you're gonna be here. That's all very factual. It's not yelling, it's very demoralizing, but it's not harassment. And and I get a lot of those.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

I I do have a question. Yeah, and uh two questions. The first question is this so I've always thought of yelling. You should never yell in a workplace unless you're yelling for someone to get out of the way of a machine that's getting towards them. Yes. Yes, I really am a I really am opposed to that just on a personal level. I didn't know actually that it constitute that is that is that does that qualify if you're yelling at someone out of anger? Does that qualify?

SPEAKER_03 7:50

I think absolutely that a pat now it has to be a course of conduct because we all get sort of a, you know, we're all human, we all might make a a slip once in a while, but a course of conduct where somebody leads by bullying, their way of managing is, you know, yelling at people. Now, there's a difference between yelling because you're in a noisy workplace and calling for people and trying to get their attention, and yelling because you're essentially shouting orders or mad at them or not happy. Again, sometimes a line is blurry, but I think yelling is something putting your hands on people is just a no-no. And it happens surprisingly often. Um, even in white-collar um workplaces, I sit there and I'm going, like, what are you in kindergarten? Like, did you not hear the kindergarten teachers keep your hands to yourself lecture? You know, like it happens more often than you think.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Well, listen, I worked in a workplace. This is my little spill the tea, it's early, but I worked in a workplace once where, and I was a leader in that organization, a large organization. And someone came up to me who was also on the leadership team and started reaching his hand towards my face. And I stopped and I was like, What are you about to touch my face? Just out of curiosity. We were in an open plan area. He said, Oh, well, you have a hair. I was gonna move it out of the way and tuck it behind your ear. And I said, Um, I said, Okay, I'm gonna stop you right there. That is inappropriate on several different levels. And you're a leader in this organization on top of everything else. We're in front of multiple people. Do not touch me. So I mean, I was just I was beyond, uh, I didn't take it any further, and he absolutely stayed away from me after that. Um, but wow, I was just shocked at his thinking that that was okay or that he was gonna do it. Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

I mean, if you have like, you know, like a spinach on your teeth or or, you know, like maybe uh a little bit of lipstick smear on your face, I'm not gonna wipe it off your face. I'm gonna say, you've got a smear, you've got, you know, spinach in your teeth, and that's the way to deal with it. And only if somebody says, can you help me with it? I don't seem to be able to get it. That's a different conversation. But that initial assessment about whether it's really harassment or bullying that needs to be treated under your harassment and bullying code of conduct policy, or whether it's something else, bad management, poor communication, interpersonal conflict, a disciplinary conversation that didn't go, that's probably the most important and most difficult thing that HR has to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

And my question, my second question was do how often do you get called, like do you, I'm not saying you personally, but do you think law firms get these types of calls about bullying harassment, whether they're legitimate or not? All the time.

SPEAKER_03 10:53

I joke, I joke that uh my 50% of my portfolio is people behaving badly because they don't listen to their kindergarten teachers. So like that's 50% of, you know, and sometimes it's like so obvious that it goes straight, like we're not even even investigating it. There's a whole bunch of things, we've got proof, we're this person's leaving. But in other cases, it's that whole investigation, reporting to the complainant and the respondent, uh, all the stuff that Dean talked about in your last coffee and law podcast, right? So it's a pretty involved process because there is a, it can be a he says, he says component to it. It's not always he says, she says. So I've changed it. Um, but essentially there is an investigation that is warranted. Um, and it's a surprisingly significant uh amount of my practice. And the other thing is it's surprising how senior some of these people are.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Right. And I just want to, you mentioned my episode with Dean. So the last episode was um an episode on workplace investigations. So if you're listening to this now and you want to take things a step further, I do recommend listening to Dean Bernard of Bernard and Associates. And the other thing I was gonna say is one of our partners is HR Law Canada, and they do write a lot of really good articles on this topic as well. Um, but Nina, I do have a question about are there laws that HR should be aware of when it comes to bullying and harassment? Specifically.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

In Canada, if you are federally regulated, the Canada Labor Code has a specific chapter, if you will, on bullying and harassment and workplace violence. Similarly, in if you're provincially regulated, every province has a statute which essentially creates codifies how workplaces have to deal with it. In Ontario, which is where I practice predominantly, it's not enough just to have a policy saying, you know, don't harass and bully your coworkers or your clients. You have to have a program. And that program has to address a number of things, including your, of course, having a policy, but also nitty-gritty. How do you make a complaint? How will complaints be uh treated? What is the reasonable expectation of confidentiality, if at all? Uh, what isn't harassment? Quite, you know, as well. How are you going to train people to deal with, you know, a not harassing and bullying, but also um, how do you train with them in the course of what happens during an investigation? So it's a much more demanding requirement than the old-fashioned, we have a policy against that.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

So you should be working with your lawyer on these policies that you have in your organization. This is something I think you're taking a huge risk doing this on.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

So here's what I recommend um either your lawyer or quite frankly, getting a good HR consultant because part of your harassment and bullying prevention is also, bluntly speaking, culture change. So if you know you have a culture where there's, oh, we're just joking around. And I know a number of blue-collar workplaces where the workplace is predominantly male. In fact, I would say 98% male. Like you might have a female blue-collar tradesperson on one team out of four. And the the, you know, the use of profanity, the use of sexual innuendo, it may not be directed at anybody, it may not be directed at a female employee, but it creates a toxic environment, not just for women, but newcomers who may have uh a different sensibility. Uh, different religious people have a different sensibility about crude and vulgar sexual talk. And so you really need to work on culture change in order to prevent the harassment, bullying complaint later on.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah. And you know, I've done some talks on creating a praise culture, and I'm writing a book about creating a praise culture. And the thing I love about that is about having that type of culture is these types of behaviors are very recognizable when you have an overall culture that's centered around praise. And it doesn't mean you never criticize or you never give constructive feedback, but it's in a you're giving that feedback in a safe environment. So I think that is really important to do. Outplacement and career transition support make a real difference for employees experiencing terminations or layoffs. Offering these services also reduces legal and reputational risk for employers. All of First30's outplacement programs include access to a live coach along with one year of access to our career transition portal, job search resources, and much more. Programs start at$985 per participant. You can find information about our programs and pricing at first30ready.com forward slash outplacement, or reach out to us anytime at info at first30ready.com. Okay, so there's policies, you should definitely speak to your lawyer. But what happens if the accused, and you were sort of starting to touch on this earlier, the accused harasser is someone who is in a leadership position or a member of the board. Um, and you might be very junior and be experiencing this, uh, and you report it. Number one, like what does HR do in that type of situation?

SPEAKER_03 16:39

So this is the most difficult thing because I will tell you that even with all the laws we have had for the last 30 years, there is still, oh, she's a troublemaker. And as you, you know, I'm just saying she, because the vast majority of complaints that I've dealt with are from a female employee, she's a troublemaker and it does impact people's careers. I'm just saying you should still do it. But yes, there is an impact. What HR should be doing when it's a senior person is actually not dealing it with with it, with it themselves, you know, whether that is going to general counsel if they have one, external counsel if they have one. You know, if it's the CEO, you go to the senior person on the board. If it's a person on the board, you go to the CEO. You get to somebody senior who's not involved in the complaint and essentially get them to be the sponsor of the next steps. And the next steps are likely what are we doing in the interim? Are we putting somebody on leave? Are we getting an external investigator? Because HR should not be investigating someone that they report to or to whom they are significantly junior, right? Like I'm a pretty strong person, Amy, but if there were a complaint against a, you know, one of our C-suite executives, it would not be appropriate for me to investigate because just the perception of bias. Well, you're friends with so-and-so, you report to so-and-so. How can you possibly be impartial?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

And here's a question for you because what you're talking about when an organization has a board, they're probably a significant organization, they have multiple employees. I've worked in smaller companies as well. And I could tell you that sometimes I think that when someone runs a smaller company, they feel like they can just behave in any way. I'm sure you've bumped into this as well. Like then what happens is the individual who's reporting it, they probably have to go to a lawyer and report it, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Yes. Typically, what they do is they will either go to the lawyer or they'll go to the Ministry of Labor.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Because they know very well. Like let's just take a really tiny company. Yeah. You have an owner-operator person. So he's the sole director, the sole um, you know, shareholder, and he's the CEO. Okay. So maybe hit, and I've had this, I'm like thinking of a file where the wife is like the bookkeeper, HR director, and the CEO constantly sexually solicits young junior administrative employees. Well, are you gonna go to the wife about that? Don't feel comfortable doing that. You're not gonna go to the board because the board's the same guy. You're not gonna go, there's nobody else. There's no other CC suite or senior person. So who do you go to? If you're lucky, there's somebody you trust in the workplace. But if you're unlucky, that's when you go exterior. And that's when you get that sudden lawyer's letter. Oh, well, I don't know why she's so upset about it. We were just joking around. And I'm mentally thinking, and you know, this is my client, mentally thinking, well, what you think is just joking around is not perceived that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah. And uh, you know, building on this, if you're we're talking about in the workplace right now, but what happens if someone is uh experiencing abuse at home that's following them into the workplace?

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Yeah, isn't that interesting? So almost every province and the feds have recognized that domestic violence unfortunately follows people into the workplace. And so there are specific laws requiring employers to take information about domestic violence very seriously and to institute measures to prevent that violence from spilling in. I remember a client of mine who essentially moved the junior employee to C-suite parking, which was right in front of the security. They, with permission, got a uh, you know, like essentially it was already locked, you know, everything was locked, but they made reception know that this person was absolutely not allowed. They issued a notice of trespass so that the harasser wasn't allowed. Now, this is after the breakup, so you don't always you know, some you have to work with the person, but that they were not allowed on premises so they could call the police and get a response right away. Yeah. Um, and they also indicated that uh they I don't know how they did in the phone system, but essentially understood that she couldn't pick up the phone if it was from an unmarked phone because it could be her harasser using a private phone. And so they just changed the expectations of when she would pick up phones and under what circumstances. Um, so they did a lot to try to protect her, and then they made sure that when she left the physical offices, she was escorted to her car. And uh the the former spouse did try to stalk her, but because they had all these measures, he got caught and the police actually um dealt with it and loved. Luckily, just it just took a police conversation for him to realize that this was not a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Wow. Well, I folded I had a personal experience of this actually, which I've spoken about. You know a bit about it too. Um, I write about it on LinkedIn as well. If anyone wants to see, it's under my featured content and I give some of the what I thought HR did so well. And I will say that in my experience, it made a world of difference to me. It also kept my uh colleagues safe as well, because there was some risk for my colleagues too. And in my case, this person was actually contacting senior leaders in the organization as well and harassing them. So it's a very complex situation. So I'm glad that there are policies in place. And I think it's important for everyone to be aware that there is actually a guide book that you kind of have to follow when you're in these situations. We can't just turn the other way and say, oh, I'm sorry you're going through that. You have to take action. And I'll shout out Wrigley, who was my employer at the time, did an absolutely phenomenal job and should be commended for how they took uh immediate action.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

Well, you know, and it, you know, you don't know. I uh have a friend of mine who's a lawyer and had a disgruntled client um try to burn his office down. He had to move. Gosh. Um, I've had a disgruntled client essentially try to threaten me and actually threaten other um ethnic minority lawyers who work at Gowlings. And we essentially asked the police in that jurisdiction to do essentially somewhere between a, you know, what I call a walk and talk and a wellness check, because I just felt that this person just needed somebody in authority to say, look, pipe down, please. Like I didn't think I didn't perceive an actual physical threat. I just thought this was somebody who was very angry that they lost a case and needed to vent, but the the venting had crossed a line. And I wanted the police to tell this person that the venting had crossed the line.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Yes. And and some people are some people are uh fall into line after the police call and some people don't. Um, those are the scariest ones, really. Yes. But it doesn't change the fear of the person who's being harassed either. So that's why it's so important as well for companies to take action immediately and definitively. Um, so what can companies do? We just talked a little bit about this. You know, you certainly can have a playbook, which is very helpful because these types of situations, they don't come up every day, but I think over the course of a career for an HR leader or an employer, they will come up at some point. And so, what the best thing to do, I know as a lawyer, you would say this is mitigate risk. So, what are some of the steps that organizations can take? And we've talked about some of them, um, but are there any others that organizations can take to mitigate risk?

SPEAKER_03 25:05

So, one of the things we've talked about is just basic legal compliance, right? Having that harassment uh and anti-bullying, anti-violence program, good training. Now, too often I find that people just sort of want to get some online training that's standard. I actually think investing in training where people are actually very uh using scenarios that resonate in your workplace that makes the difference, right? So, you know, have an example of somebody who uh really is upset and drives their forklift really fast at somebody and then puts it to a screeching halt. Now, that example is a kind of physical threat. That's not a great example for a law firm, frankly. We don't have forklifts here, but it's a great example if you're running a warehouse or distribution center. Um, use um, you're supposed to review your policies uh with your Joint Health and Safety Committee. Try to use uh things that flared up in the last two years, maybe they're harassment, maybe they're not, and work that into your training. Uh the other thing is many problems uh become harassment problems, but are actually bad management or bad communication issues. So investing in training people how to talk well, uh how to deal with disputes properly, how to de-escalate when people are upset and get to the real root cause of why they're upset and seeing if there's a solution. All of those soft skills really help reduce the number of complaints. You know, the best managers are often the ones who are not yellers. They're very soft-spoken. They are the listeners. They know how to de-escalate, they know how to deal with uncomfortable and ugly emotion. So that's something that, you know, when we talk about training, we often talk about technical training. You know, do you know what the most recent case law is? Do you know how to send a bill? Do you, you know, like do you know how to operate a forklift properly? Is your certification and first aid up to date? But those soft skills are really important. And companies that invest in those soft skills do see a reduction in harassment complaints. The other thing to investigate is let's say you do get a complaint and it's formulated as a harassment complaint. Like the example you gave me. Well, he wasn't very nice about it. He says he's gonna put it's not harassment because it's, you know, it's a but how do we take that as an opportunity to teach the manager how they could have better communicated that issue? How do we sort of train the employee to say, okay, yeah, I agree, wasn't communicated well, but you know, are you listening for the feedback? How can we use that feedback? And often we have someone like Dean go in and they'll say, it's not harassment, but there are other issues. Well, how do we deal with those other issues? Because if you don't deal with those other issues, you will get attrition and you will definitely get yet another harassment complaint. So, how do we stop those problems from bubbling up to becoming a legal issue?

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Yeah, in the past I've taught um managing difficult conversations training, and it's amazing how many people, myself included at times, don't like to, they'll avoid and avoid uh those difficult conversations, and that can really make things bubble up and then uh something it turns into an explosion where if they just had a conversation five conversations ago or 10 conversations ago and address the issue, it wouldn't have um turned into what it became.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

And I have that, you know, I have a similar situation where people have had uh essentially want to go straight to termination for cause, but they haven't had any of those conversations and they haven't documented those conversations. And my trick, and I'm you could, you know, this isn't a how to have difficult conversations or feedback conversation, but if your employee perceives that you are genuinely and passionately concerned about them success succeeding in the workplace, and that the feedback is coming from a not a disciplinary perspective, but is coming from a if you want to be successful here, because I want you to be successful here, then this is what we're gonna have to see. And how can I help you get to that? I'm not saying that works with every employee. I've got lots of stories of where that does not work. But I find that the average person who wants to keep their job and who wants to do a good job is much more receptive to that conversation than the you're doing a terrible job, and if you don't improve, I'm gonna put you on a pip.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So my last question, and then I want to have our little spill the tea, although we feel it feels like we've done a lot of spilling the tea in this episode. Um, but my last question is you know, we had uh my the episode with Dean on workplace investigations, but you would probably know very well, I mean, the investigation happens. What now? Like what after the investigation?

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Exactly. So sometimes you will find, let's just take some scenarios. And uh ironically, I use Dean a lot. So I think we've gone through all of these scenarios with Dean or people like Dean. So one is harassment is found, but it's not of a degree that would justify termination for cause. And we're not even sure we want to terminate. So, how do we deal with it so that the person who complained feels that we're serious? And not everybody wants to see the employee. Like how, and that takes a lot of communication skill. There's an investigation, we agreed that it was not appropriate. Here's what we're going to do. And it may require we're going to invest in communication training, we're going to monitor the workplace so it still works. And we might change reporting structures so people don't feel like normal conversations or reprisals. You may find a report which says it's probably not harassment from a legal perspective. Like it doesn't, you know, it doesn't meet the legal standard. But boy, was that a terrible way to tell somebody that they're not a good employee. And maybe what we need to do is invest in management training for that manager. Many, many managers are promoted, as you know, because they are tremendously technically gifted. That does not mean that they're gifted at people management. And expecting people to do both is kind of unfair, right? Like to be a great people manager and a great engineer or a great software programmer or a great lawyer. And then finally, you have places where you know what, it wasn't harassment and it's just odd. And you've you get the sense that the employee is not happy with the job and they're just begging to like maybe get you figure out whether or not that's an appropriate time where it's not a reprisal, but you invite a conversation about saying, look, I don't think you're this is the gig for you that you're not happy here. Yeah. Uh, and can we do something so that we can help you find something you're happier? And all of those are appropriate responses, but I will tell you the post-investigation stage is a very delicate. People have been wounded, uh, they're hurt that somebody has made an allegation of harassment or racial discrimination. Um, they are personally, you know, like it's very hard to say, well, maybe they perceived it that way, but but it wasn't. And I've been vindicated, but you're still hurt that somebody made that allegation against you. You know, how do we get through that? And you may actually need some support from a third-party coach. And we know some of these great coaches, um, to really work through some of that hurt feeling because sometimes there's lines drawn. You know, there's line complainant, there's team complainant, and team respondent. And that doesn't go away when an investigator drops their report and makes a finding.

SPEAKER_01 33:15

Yeah. Just I'll give you a quick little spill of tea. It's not really to do with the workplace, but you're making me think of it because you have to pick up the pieces once everything has sort of settled. You still have an issue to people still have to get along and work together. I was on a uh in the tube in London. I used to live there, and a woman came in, had been very badly injured. She was fortunately okay, but she had been very badly injured. She was hysterical. I'm very good in uh these types of situations and emergency situations. I she must have sensed that because she came straight to me, laid down, put her head in my lap. I everybody's just staring at me like no one was doing anything. And I'm trying to call 911 or 999, I think, in the UK. And I'm started yelling at everyone in the train. You do this, you do that, da-da-da. And then she was taken care of. Fortunately, emergency services arrived. She leaves, and then we're all stuck on the train together. So it was one of those weird situations where I had, out of necessity, I had directed everyone, but I was very um intense, as you can imagine, and very, I wasn't being nice about it, if you know what I mean, because I didn't have time, and then we're all stuck together. So we could have used some coaching at that point. Anyway, so you, it's your turn. So thank you. This is all such valuable information. I also want to say that if you want to get in touch with Nina, you do need legal services or legal advice, then your information is in the show notes. But Nina, for anyone who's new to this show, is uh at a partner at a law firm called Gowling WLG. And of course, I highly recommend Nina. She's absolutely amazing. And all I hear is wonderful things across the board about Nina Gupta. So, Nina, now that we've had all that out of the way, what is your spill of tea for today?

SPEAKER_03 35:10

I'm gonna tell a story about one of my first bosses in Toronto, a brilliant litigator. But he was somebody who, if he wasn't happy with something or he was frustrated, yelled. And he wasn't necessarily always yelling at you. He was yelling at the situation, but he was a yeller and he could make you feel pretty small. So I don't remember what exactly set him off in a particular situation, but I remember him yelling at, I don't know if it was at me or about the world, but it was pretty, pretty significant and for a fairly lengthy period of time. And then he just sort of calmed himself down and left. And I essentially started scribbling notes about, okay, I'm not sure exactly what he like. I discerned there were certain things he needed me to do. So I was writing those down when another partner came in, a very soft-spoken man. Um, and he actually said, Are you okay? And he and then he said, You have to know that he is very difficult, and he's difficult with partners as well. If you need to talk to me about something, you come to me and you don't hesitate. And what was funny because I don't know, maybe you know, I'm from Saskatchewan, we've got a thick skin. I wasn't gonna, but just the fact knowing that I had a senior partner's support just made it made, and I worked with this guy for two years, made the next two years completely bearable because I knew that he would believe me if I came to him and said, I can't take it anymore because he's doing that. And somebody clearly talked to that partner because he, I'm not gonna say he was instantly the most ch prince charming, but he was much more professional from that period of time. So somebody probably sort of said, Look, you can't do that anymore. The other spill the tea is where I was a young first-year associate and I did something wrong, which is I overheard a senior partner yell at his assistant and I was shocked. And my assistant said, Well, you don't hear it all the time because you're in your office, but we hear it all the time because we're in the cubicle. I should have raised that and I didn't. I would do that definitely now, but you're in your first year, you don't, you're just, you know, you're just trying to figure out what you're supposed to do and not supposed to do. Um, but you know, those are that that, and these are in a highly professional workplace, you know, a law firm in the late 80s. And so it just tells me that these kinds of things can happen anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Yeah. And you know, Dean is also said that when these things happen, like when investigations happen, everyone kind of knew about it already. And it just all of a sudden, it's it's not a surprise, if you know what I mean, when it all comes in most cases, when it comes to the forefront. And like you, Nina, I kind of regret not taking any action with that situation I told you about earlier, but because that I was a leader, he was a leader, and I didn't I don't want to think that he did that to other more junior people who might have not been in the position I was to stand up for themselves. So I have some regrets there too, actually, about not saying anything. But it's so complicated.

SPEAKER_03 38:24

And maybe you sort of saying it's not okay was what he needed. Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen, this has been such a great episode. I hope everybody enjoyed it and learned a lot. And we hope to see you at the next one. And if you also, I should have said, you can connect with Nina and also with me on LinkedIn as well. But for now, have a great day, and we'll see you next time.